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Timing map with ColdSide

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  • Timing map with ColdSide

    How much timing you guys run with ColdSide setup? Here’s my “safe map” which I made from scratch. I think it’s ok and I haven’t heard any knock yet (max boost currently 8PSI or 140kPa). I've remove the e-cool and replace that with small 0.4mm WI jet (203cc/min) pre-blower which I’ll probably move to that e-cool spot later.



    And here's my "Target AFR" window

    Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
    FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

  • #2
    With the standard 10psi pulley (105mm crank/65mm nose), the default setting for the Timing Card is 3/4 deg retard per psi. Stock is running 24 deg BTDC at WOT and 4000rpm and above. So that nets approximately 16-17 deg BTDC at 10psi (160 Kpa). On a '90-'00 however, I find one can run 1/2 retard per psi which would net about what your map shows of 19 deg BTDC at 160 Kpa. So, for the Coldside, I would say your timing map is on the aggressive side. Also, I would recommend you copy the 7000rpm column to 7500rpm and beyond columns. Currently, you have some very advanced timing settings at say 8000rpm and beyond. I know you "shouldn't" see those rpm, but as a safeguard it is good to have the map complete with no funny cells that you didn't fill in... just in case you miss a shift or the like. The rpm may get the engine anyway, but it wouldn't help to have the timing suddenly shift a bunch of deg more advanced .

    So, I would recommend 24 deg max in the 100 Kpa row and then subtract 2.5 deg per 20 Kpa row higher. That would be a starting point for a safe tune. After you get the fuel set at 11.5:1 (recommended) then I you may, carefully, be able to start advancing the boost timing a bit. I could see perhaps as low a 1.5 deg per 20 Kpa row. I would still recommend staying at 24 deg BTDC on the 100 Kpa row however.

    Edit: Your A/F targets look very safe. You can probably lean out the 11.0:1 zones to 11.5:1 for best power.

    Comment


    • #3
      I do have knocklite and it didn't flash at all. That could be because ambient temp was only +5C (40F) and do have '95 bottom end so my compression is around 8.8:1. Maybe I'll put to my "Air temp trim" to trim ignition back when air temps get warmer

      My current fuel table is kind a good. Maybe little bit in rich side but Adaptronic has this "rapid learning" function that automatically make corrections in fuel table.
      Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
      FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

      Comment


      • #4
        You mean learn in the sense that it will automatically change the targets? Or simply changing the table to match the targets you have hardcoded?

        Just my recommendations above that's all.

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        • #5
          It will change the table to match my targets. It works surprisingly good. 30min of driving and my now WOT pulls gives me steady 12.6 at low revs and 11.6-11.9 at high revs.

          Thank you for the recommendations. Maybe i’ll retard timing little bit before I get to the dyno ...I have my eyes on 130 pulley
          Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
          FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

          Comment


          • #6
            Actually, I am a dunce. I didn't notice you had WI. That changes things. With that I would recommend leaner than you have it... but I would do that on the dyno. 12:1 - 12.5:1 would be a very reasonable target with WI at full boost. Remember, you are replacing excess fuel that was used for cooling with the more potent water. From what I have seen with EGTs (regardless of E-Cool or not), I would recommend 125mm pulley max. There are smalls gains with the 130mm pulley and the EGTs start to not look so great above 6500rpm with that pulley (even with bigger injectors).

            With WI, provided you have the correct sized jet selected, you can likely be more aggressive with the timing. Again, 24 deg BTDC would be the max, but that would be the max I would suggest in boost. I compare that with intercooled setups I have done didn't gain anything beyond 24 deg BTDC in boost... even with higher octane fuel. I'd start with 2 deg pulled per 20 kPA (starting at 24 deg at 100 kPA) and go from there. You probably will need some retard, but not too much. You may be able to get down to 1 deg retard per 20 kPA. Just remember to set the fuel first before doing the timing.

            Sorry again for the oversight. I skimmed over the WI note and was assuming a standard setup. Closed loop wideband sounds too cool. Wish I had that .

            One final note, if you have a fixed WI setup (on/off) be wary of what occurs at 6500-7000rpm. With a single stage WI that is where you will have the "leanest" water to fuel ratio.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yeah I'm planing to use that 45 degree old e-cool injector place for the WI jet. I've already made adaptor for the M8 sized jet

              I'm able to upgrade my "on/off" type WI to the progressive one. Adaptronic can use Fuel map #2 to water injectors. So I can easily make water spray match my fuel inj. duty cycle.
              Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
              FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

              Comment


              • #8
                here's btw picture of my WI port. It's a 205cc/min water jet which opens at 7PSI. So far my car has been 100% ping free

                Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
                FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

                Comment


                • #9
                  I now run 65x115 pulleys giving me around 12-13PSI. Absolutely no ping anywhere on the map. Inj. Duty Cycles are around 50% max

                  So Bill which pulley do I choose next? My compression is around 8.6 - 8.8:1 and I'm probably moving to E85 sooner or later. I have two nose pulleys to play with, 75mm and 65mm. You think 130mm is little too much?
                  Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
                  FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What size are the fuel injectors you are running? 550cc?

                    Provided you have enough fuel and no ping with WI, you could go as high as the 125mm pulley for a 7000rpm redline or the 130mm pulley for a 6500rpm redline. Reason? It isn't fuel but simply what I believe is an airflow issue based on the EGTs and power gains. The power gains dropped of with the 130mm pulley and the EGTs were starting to not look so good above 6500rpm. I don't think this was a matter so much of the extra injectors I was running but rather the airflow was no longer equal to all four cylinders. Probably a matter of boost. With the 125mm pulley, boost is about at 14psi on my car. With the 130mm pulley it is over 16psi. I think 15psi is the max boost to run on these blowers before the efficiency takes a nosedive.

                    With E85 and 125mm pulley you are going to need, based on the testing I have done, the equivalent of 2200cc worth of total fuel at 62psi fuel rail pressure. In other words, if you are running 550cc injectors at 62psi, they will be at 100% duty cycle by 7000rpm. Thus you would need bigger than 550cc injectors. The good news is you could turn off the WI and make plenty of power with no ping. I mean plenty of power .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have 800cc Deatschwerks injectors which I run at 55PSI fuel pressure (so they flow ~900cc). I choose these specifically to run E85 in the future

                      I also might get slightly more boost because I run MSM intake cam so maybe 125mm is enough
                      Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
                      FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well you are certainly set with fuel then . I would try the 125mm pulley first and dyno it. Then if you are really brave, you could repeat the dyno test with the 130mm pulley. It is a matter of boost (backpressure) and what rpm you spend your time at.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OK. So I got my 125mm pulley today. From 115mm to 125mm boost increased 11.5 PSI to 14.5 PSI. I exepted little bit more but maybe my MSM intake cam allow more air flow and therefore less boost? Or I have small boost leak somewhere...

                          Anyway. I’m running 20 deg BTDC 3Krpm all the way to redline without any ping So my WI appears to be doing it's job fine.

                          Here’s a picture of my plugs: http://www.miata.fi/kuvat/plugs.jpg
                          Looks like cyl#4 is getting most of the water?
                          Adaptronic e420c + DW 800cc
                          FFS-CS 65x125mm + Aquamist WI

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The system adds 1.5PSI per 5mm change in crank pulley so +3 PSI is correct.

                            That's great that it runs to redline like that.
                            sigpic


                            1990 with FFS Coldside. At least 260 WHP NON-INTERCOOLED

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                            • #15
                              Yep, your boost sounds spot on. Regarding WI water distribution to the cylinders, I never got a chance to test it. However, with the single extra fuel injector I found that if it is pre SC, then the fuel tends to get pushed to the rearwards #4 especially and #3 somewhat at higher rpm. This was reflected by the EGT spread becoming greater at higher rpm with cylinder #4 running the coolest, followed by #3 and number #1 running the hottest. I also saw a similar situation with running a single extra injector only in the manifold, whether it be at the bottom or side. In the original corner location it tended to running coolest on cylinder #2, followed by #3, and cylinders #1 and #4 were the hottest. The key was to go to two injectors in the side, with the larger injector in the frontmost possible position (to get fuel to cylinder #1) and one half the size in the position just aft of it. This resulted in the best fuel distribution... or the most equal EGTs all the way up to the rev cut. Fuel distribution issues particularly rear their head at higher rpm. I believe these observations support the concept that the blower is pushing the fuel harder towards the rearwards cylinders as rpm is increasing. Thus you have to have a way to compensate with unequal sized injectors if you want to maintain a good distribution of fuel throughout the rpm sweep to redline. That is, when injecting the fuel in the manifold vs. just port injection only.

                              The point? I purposely used the word fuel in all the comments regarding distribution and EGTs, but I would make an educated guess that a very similar method would apply with water distribution when injected in the manifold as injecting fuel in the manifold. The main difference is obviously you are dealing with water which has a different latent heat and boiling point. Also the water pressure is higher than the fuel pressure, so I think the observations I had with fuel may be even more skewed with water.

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